tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post3964977120593490158..comments2023-08-19T23:23:19.849+10:00Comments on Sentire cum Ecclesia: On the Jewish Question: "There's no confusion - it's both/and."Schützhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05026181010471282505noreply@blogger.comBlogger11125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-35197566208856153872009-09-18T09:56:25.000+10:002009-09-18T09:56:25.000+10:00Good points. It's one thing to avoid singling ...Good points. It's one thing to avoid singling out the Jews to be proselytized. Certainly a bad idea. It's another thing to say that they don't need to hear about Christ. It's like denying Christ, but only when the Jews are concerned.<br><br>Yet another fruit of political correctness gone too far, perhaps? :-)Jeff Tanhttp://onebread.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-47387371129938369042009-09-18T22:27:47.000+10:002009-09-18T22:27:47.000+10:00The relations between Christians and Jews are, it ...The relations between Christians and Jews are, it seems to me, unique in interfaith relations because they are, in many respects, a family affair and often all the more bitter because of it. Christians also claim Abraham as our father in faith. This idea that Jews must renounce their jewishness in order to become Christians is ridiculos and must be deeply offensive to Jewish Catholics. The conversion of the jewish people would not lead to their annihalation but to the completion of their glory. This idea has implications well beyond Christian/Jewish relations. When my ancestors became Christian they did not loose their Irishness nor did they loose their distinctive witness. Rather, this distinctivness found a new, wider, and more glorious exoression. How much more so for the Jewish people to whom the Word was first revealed.An Liaignoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-81165607751639903302009-09-20T08:42:29.000+10:002009-09-20T08:42:29.000+10:00I think it would be good to hear from jewish catho...I think it would be good to hear from jewish catholics on this. While we can discuss this intellectually, they must live with these tensions and possibilities every day. This is very different from discussions which we, the church, may have with, say, Hindus where we expect them to be different so that when we find points of agreement or similarity, they come as a pleasant surprise. The Jews are a part of our own salvation history so that the agreements are expected and the disagreements cause pain. This pain has been a constant part of each group's history from apostolic times on and it is this which is the basis of the bitterness between them. This history of bitterness, in turn, is a powerful, even dominant, factor in both the inter and intra faith discussions. This is why we need to be very clear about our stance.An Liaignoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-72409043823245431222009-09-21T06:01:59.000+10:002009-09-21T06:01:59.000+10:00i agree An Liaig and Schutz those Jews who become ...i agree An Liaig and Schutz those Jews who become Christians count the cost not only in changing faith but also in the practices of their faith,and must at first wonder what part of the Synagogue they have to leave and what will stay,without falling into the trap of the Judaisers that Peter and Paul came to argue about.Matthiasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-34253694792042057732009-09-22T17:22:35.000+10:002009-09-22T17:22:35.000+10:00Excellent and insightful post. I do wonder about t...Excellent and insightful post. I do wonder about the last sentence though; "The only argument between us concerns the identity of that Messiah…" You must also and hence the "..." There is "more" to be said and that "more" constitutes/creates further "tension." Hence "here we are." And where is that, truly? How are we any further along the road?hopelensnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-84728799312550374852009-09-26T01:34:41.000+10:002009-09-26T01:34:41.000+10:00Thank you, Michael. This is really useful.Thank you, Michael. This is really useful.Schützhttp://www.scecclesia.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-89281507485656396192009-09-24T20:01:50.000+10:002009-09-24T20:01:50.000+10:00Interesting point Schutz "The only argument b...Interesting point Schutz "The only argument between us concerns the identity of that Messiah" <br>I am currently reading the BOOKS OF ENOCH,and there the writers-Apocalyptists- being preachers of righteousness,look forward to the Messiah , and also make refrence to the messiah as the SON OF GOD. <br>What is also interersting is the Universalism of this book-Gentiles and jews will share a new creation if they have been righteous.matthiasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-51290705728711203932009-09-24T21:28:19.000+10:002009-09-24T21:28:19.000+10:00SchutzI would like to add a few comments if I may:...Schutz<br><br>I would like to add a few comments if I may:<br><br>It might be more interesting to consider your earlier sentence in this light:<br><br>"there is a whole debate out there among Jewish Christians as to how much of the Synagogue faith and practice MUST be observed."<br><br>Most Jewish Christians, and I can only speak from the Catholic perspective, would suggest that none of the practice is mandatory but is rather all optional and they choose what is appropriate for their own comfort level within their expression of faith. <br><br>As to synagogue practice - I'm uncertain, again I understand it to be what the individual prefers. There are certainly parts of the Orthodox Jewish religious service which are from the Temple period or earlier which would be appropriate for prayer. <br><br>I suspect that Catholic Jews, if they chose to have some form of synagogue ritual (aside from Mass which is a totally different issue), would have to formulate something that would be appropriate and would, I would hope at least, be suitably anachronistic to resemble pre-Mishnaic Judaism synagogue practice. (I am unaware of such an attempt being made though. I would not approve of some aping of existing synagogue rituals for a number of reasons) <br><br>The issue concerning the Ebionites as far as I understand it, was that they believed that Christian Jews still had to live under the precepts of the Law including ritual practice etc. until the return of the Messiah. <br><br>I cannot imagine that they would have expected Christian Gentiles to adopt those precepts (so in that way they were different from the Judaizers) however they seemed to have been perceived (incorrectly I should add) by a largely Gentile episcopacy and clergy as theologically deviant because of their different practices. <br><br>There was also a manifest desire, on the part of the episcopacy and clergy which grew over the centuries, to clearly differentiate themselves from Jewry itself and I imagine they saw these types in a poor light (despite the fact that James himself would have advocated their position).Son of Tryphonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-10115344428635397152009-09-24T21:43:06.000+10:002009-09-24T21:43:06.000+10:00I forgot one other thing that came to mind - there...I forgot one other thing that came to mind - there are some views amongst Christian Jews who do follow precepts from the Law (which as I have noted earlier are not required if understood in an orthodox theological sense) that they do so because they are appropriate for them as Jews to observe to honour Hashem. This is why many of the negative prohibitions are maintained (eg. dietary) despite no requirement to do so.Son of Tryphonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-72267077053296266812009-09-26T01:34:25.000+10:002009-09-26T01:34:25.000+10:00Yes, I am a little prone to using the "...&qu...Yes, I am a little prone to using the "..." in terms of "let the reader understand". <br><br>I think recognising our common origins and identifying the exact point at issue between us is already a step forward, even if it does not seem to bring us actually closer to a resolution. <br><br>In truth, I do not expect a "resolution" to take place this side of the eschaton. Rather, I hope that we learn to understand eachother a little better and be a bit slower to react against one another in the future.Schützhttp://www.scecclesia.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-33260007649923359002009-09-26T01:32:12.000+10:002009-09-26T01:32:12.000+10:00I would want to acknowledge a difference here betw...I would want to acknowledge a difference here between Catholic Jews and Protestant Jews. Catholic Jews (who either no longer self identify with their Jewishness at all, or who are generally represented by the Association of Hebrew Catholics), fully accept the doctrine and ritual of the Catholic Church. Amongst the non-Catholic Jewish Christians there is, from what I have read, a distinct and sharp disagreement about their identity and relationship with the "Gentile" Church. Some would regard the Law has "MUST be kept", although this seems to us to be entirely counter to St Paul and the Early Church's witness.Schützhttp://www.scecclesia.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.com