tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post4036323204490273848..comments2023-08-19T23:23:19.849+10:00Comments on Sentire cum Ecclesia: Was Chrysostom a Lutheran?Schützhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05026181010471282505noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-69750196365855261902007-06-12T13:43:00.000+10:002007-06-12T13:43:00.000+10:00Dear Mr Cruz,My point is that despite the union th...Dear Mr Cruz,<BR/><BR/>My point is that despite the union that there is between me and Christ, there is also a distinction to be made. The marriage image is a good one here (which is why Paul used it of Christ and the Church). Husband and wife are one flesh, but without the individual identity of either the husband or the wife being subsumed by the other. In the same way the Church is the Body of Christ, yet we confess that Christ exists as the Fully divine fully human Son of the Father and born of the Virgin Mary distinct from the Church. In the same way, my unity with Christ is not such that my individuality is subsumed by Christ (in some sort of Buddhist Nirvana sense). So when I stand before God I don't simply wish for him to see Christ "instead of me", I want him to see ME redeemed by Christ. Do you get the distinction?Schützhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05026181010471282505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-90048268737225876672007-06-09T04:26:00.000+10:002007-06-09T04:26:00.000+10:00Good post, sir!Chrysostom was an influencing facto...Good post, sir!<BR/><BR/>Chrysostom was an influencing factor in my conversion from Lutheranism to Catholicism.David Contra Mundumhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15754456771181094154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-29191003254763846302007-06-08T11:49:00.000+10:002007-06-08T11:49:00.000+10:00DaveThen I will be a real person But in Christ you...Dave<BR/><BR/><I>Then I will be a real person</I> <BR/><BR/>But in Christ you have been. Why the preoccupation? Let Christ be your all in all, or is that bad?<BR/><BR/><BR/><I>I am not denying grace in this operation</I><BR/><BR/>But I think you are.<BR/><BR/>Cheers mate,<BR/><BR/><BR/>LitoLPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11352627830833515548noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-20023646185845159022007-06-07T15:11:00.000+10:002007-06-07T15:11:00.000+10:00There is a Chrysostom expert here in the Lutheran ...There is a Chrysostom expert here in the Lutheran Church of Australia--I know her, but Adam Cooper would know her better--I haven't spoken to her in yonks. Dr Wendy Mayer is an Orientalist with a specific interest in Chrysostom. I would be interested in what she had to say, but (and please forgive me here from the sin of making an evaluative criticism) I believe that she perhaps has more expertise in history and languages than in theology per se. In otherwords, as a precise historian of that particular era, I don't know how well she would be able to evaluate Chrysostom's thought in the light of the later controversies. <BR/><BR/>I believe that I may catch up with her at the Orientale Lumen conference here in Melbourne later this year (a big "East-West" ecclesiastical dialogue/seminar/conference/do -- they have them in the states too), so I will suggest the book idea to her. Or Adam can do it for me if he is reading this suggestion and expects to see her in the near fut.Schützhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05026181010471282505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-53240085800802210882007-06-07T15:10:00.000+10:002007-06-07T15:10:00.000+10:00Gee whiz, as a recovering academic I clean forgot ...Gee whiz, as a recovering academic I clean forgot to supply a citation. Contra gentiles, Book One, Chapter Nine. I trust everyone got the St Paul one.Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-56525346795934727272007-06-07T13:15:00.000+10:002007-06-07T13:15:00.000+10:00Speaking of Oz -- as in wizard of, not Aussieralia...Speaking of Oz -- as in wizard of, not Aussieralia, as my long time Crocodile Dundee roomie in grad school called it -- it always amused me that Omaha (where I live) seems to be placed in Kansas at the end. And you thought Vazquez de Coronado was lost looking for Quivira!<BR/><BR/>It seems to me all creedal statemens are skewed by the points at controversy when they were written.<BR/><BR/>Likewise theology. We have Christianised Platonism, Christianised Aristotelianism, Christianised phenomenology in post conciliar thought.<BR/><BR/>Which is why neither creeds nor theology substitutes for Scripture. Way too often our theological schools get more into the models they have borrowed to explain faith than the faith itself. I still like Aquinas best, who said that theology is fine if it helps understanding of what is already believed, but otherwise forget about it, and certainly do not argue on its basis rather than Scripture lest the unbeliever think we believe on the basis of such flimsy arguments.<BR/><BR/>If that's not good enough how about St Paul, something about resolving to know nothing but Christ and him crucified, lest faith rest on human wisdom rather than divine power.Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-37171302250468616512007-06-07T12:05:00.000+10:002007-06-07T12:05:00.000+10:00David,Which IS precisely why I think someone shoul...David,<BR/><BR/>Which IS precisely why I think someone should do a book on the beloved Saint's teaching on this particular topic. To do as much justice as possible to the fact that he spoke before the questions were put at the Reformation (and before that in the West with the rejection of Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism - council of Orange and such). He's a pastor who is unpacking the Scriptures before him for his people. At times you see him offer them the sweetest gospel comfort; at times you see him take up the stern warnings that sham faith is worthless - and how often he does the later by pointing to our love and care of the poor. I'll be there's tons more in the stuff that never made it into English. <BR/><BR/>Past Elder, I know you live in Nebraska, but as they say a few miles to the south... "There's no place like home." ;)William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-80908947151561765962007-06-07T10:56:00.000+10:002007-06-07T10:56:00.000+10:00Great Scott. Bee's knees was an expression my mom...Great Scott. Bee's knees was an expression my mom used too here in America. Likewise cat's pyjamas, though she would have spelled it pajamas -- thank my Irish English teacher at a Catholic school in Minnesota for my English written English.<BR/><BR/>As to the rest: since we just know that there is no conflict, therefore it can't be there and it must be just me. That's right up there with "development" as a way to find black a development of our understanding of white in post Vatican II newspeak. <BR/><BR/>Oh well, was a time when I read the Church Fathers and thought how could anyone read these guys and not be Catholic, or at least Orthodox, too. I mean, they were, after all. Been there, done that.<BR/><BR/>However, poking around in some of the links, I find things are even worse than I thought. Apparently "traditional" Catholicism is now a block to the working of the Holy Spirit. Guess I'd have to renounce two faiths to "come home" -- Catholicism undeveloped and aggiornamentoed, and Lutheranism. Man, where's the old Abjuration of Heresy when you need it?<BR/><BR/>Good thing I AM home.Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-41349369206734395282007-06-07T09:24:00.000+10:002007-06-07T09:24:00.000+10:00I think "bees knees" is one of those 1920's saying...I think "bees knees" is one of those 1920's saying that got around on both sides of the Atlantic, especially due to a character like P. G. Wodehouse--who also liked the term "cat's pyjamas", if I'm not mistaken. <BR/><BR/>Re: Chrysostom. The thing about people who come before a certain controversy in support of positions taken for the first time in a certain controversy is that the controversy itself has created a new and previously unheard of context--a context in which ancient passages may take on new meanings. Happens all the time.<BR/><BR/>In this case, there never was anything like a controversy of justification in Chrysostom's time. While at times he could make statements about the role of faith in justification that look very Lutheran (because they are simply restatements of the Gospel as Paul preached it) I don't think he would have been too comfortable with the positions taken by the later Lutheran dogmatists (and some contemporary ones). <BR/><BR/>It simply remains to be said that Chrysostom was a Church Father, owned by Lutherans, Orthodox and Catholics alike. The thing is that Lutherans would probably still find stuff in Chrysostom with which they would be uncomfortable, whereas Orthodox and Catholics give full affirmation to his teaching--on justification inter alia. <BR/><BR/>From the Catholic point of view, we don't have to ask "Is there a conflict between Chrysostom and Trent?" because we know that there isn't. If you do find a conflict, then you are misunderstanding either one. The seeming "conflict" is likely to arise from the different contexts into which they were speaking. Trent was speaking into a situation where they THOUGHT the Lutherans were denying the necessity of love and action in the matter of justification. <BR/><BR/>Whether they were right or wrong, we need to be wary of reading either Trent or Chrysostom outside their context.Schützhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05026181010471282505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-65632539923486187692007-06-07T07:55:00.000+10:002007-06-07T07:55:00.000+10:00Goodness, Christopher! I'm heaping up more proof ...Goodness, Christopher! I'm heaping up more proof that English is a sea one can sail, but never master. Thanks for the info.<BR/><BR/>And David, thanks, then, for the kind words, (though I think they are quite undeserved).William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-26320960957079212007-06-07T06:28:00.000+10:002007-06-07T06:28:00.000+10:00Fr Weedon,I'm surprised that you don't know the ex...Fr Weedon,<BR/><BR/>I'm surprised that you don't know the expression "the bee's knees", which was a favorite of my Mom. I'm also a bit surprised to see it used by an Aussie, as I've always assumed it was uniquely American.<BR/><BR/>"The bee's knees" means "the best of the best"; you know, "the tops", "the cat's pajamas", and so forth. When Schütz says that your weblog is <I>the beesknees of evangelical catholic Lutheranism,</I> he's paying you quite a high compliment.<BR/><BR/>He's right, of course (about your weblog, not about justification!).Chris Joneshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03220498656377282715noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-72144513488502080362007-06-06T23:17:00.000+10:002007-06-06T23:17:00.000+10:00What the devil is a "beesknees"? Is it Oz-speak o...What the devil is a "beesknees"? Is it Oz-speak or a more universal time of which I am ignorant. <BR/><BR/>I am not arguing that Chrysostom was a Lutheran in his confession of justification, but I do believe his approach to the topic was far more complex than most folks make it out to be and that it skates closer to the Lutheran Confession than the Tridentine of the same. He could indeed confess the sola fide (usually did so when he was dealing with a passage that clearly taught it) but would add often the corrective that such faith must be REAL, not just knowledge of Orthodox teaching and assent to it, but a living appropriation of it. Fiducia, not mere assenssus.<BR/><BR/>As to the quote on almsgiving, I confess that it puzzled me what significance Koons found in it. "Repentance without almsgiving is a corpse." What is objectionable about THAT for a Lutheran? Remember the words of the Apology of the Augsburg Confession: "So here we say about alms that this entire newness of life saves. Alms are also the exercise of faith, which receives the forgiveness of sins and overcomes death, while it exercises itself more and more, and in these exercises receives strength."William Weedonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01383850332591975790noreply@blogger.com