tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post4493988454206131356..comments2023-08-19T23:23:19.849+10:00Comments on Sentire cum Ecclesia: What's buggin Geoffrey Robinson?Schützhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05026181010471282505noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-61640936594507046542007-09-11T23:09:00.000+10:002007-09-11T23:09:00.000+10:00Here's a little snippet about "financial accountab...Here's a little snippet about "financial accountability" and megachurches from a story of this morning:<BR/><BR/><I>In Kansas, the evangelical First Family Church, which has about 5,000 members, has seen some members and employees leave because of questions about a lack of financial transparency and an appearance of lavish spending on homes, trips and cars by senior pastor Jerry Johnston.</I>Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-48365184252827891542007-09-11T20:36:00.000+10:002007-09-11T20:36:00.000+10:00Well, BP, Bishops are humans too and do make mista...Well, BP, Bishops are humans too and do make mistakes. They belong to the infallible teaching magisterium, but sure ain't infallible in reference to financial and property matters. Authentic authority can be abused as easily as it is used correctly, but we need to protect the proper use of spiritual authority, so we take a course that, yes is open to possible abuse, but also is protected so that it remains free from manipulation by those who do not have authority to teach.Schützhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05026181010471282505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-82090848048303992022007-09-11T14:43:00.000+10:002007-09-11T14:43:00.000+10:00Schutz said, "it is conceivable that the financial...Schutz said, "it is conceivable that the financial power could be used against the spiritual authorities."<BR/><BR/>I don't buy into the party line and age old spins you promulgate. I am witnessing the opposite where I live. The spiritual authorities are closing down recent built churches that are well attended, financially solvent and vibrant only because of a shortage of priests and the bishop who technically owns the churches is doing this against the wishes of the parishioners. You over supernatural the powers of Bishops and forget that they make mistakes and therefore should share powers and get out of the real estate business. They are not acting in Christ's best interests in many respects based on news reports. The conservatives consider Jesus too liberal because he (God) chose 11 married men out of 12 to be His apostles. Your kind of church worked in the Middle Ages but it is causing a major apostasy today. The Pope, priests and bishops sometimes act absurdly by letting apostasy happen because they cling to their ancient customs that do not apply today. The universal moral teachings are fine but the man made traditions need to change but will not due to arthritis of the brain in our Hierarchy. - B.P.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-53258232325836746232007-09-11T13:54:00.000+10:002007-09-11T13:54:00.000+10:00Well I'll say one thing for celibacy -- at least w...Well I'll say one thing for celibacy -- at least when it's followed, "nephews" are really nephews! Hey, that's it, you can solve the pre/post conciliar thing by bringing back the Borgias! I'll have a little trouble with Valencian though, speaking Puerto Rican Spanish. I suppose we'd have to decide if it's a distinct language or a dialect of Catalan though, which generates as much strong feeling from those involved as the pre/post conciliar thing, so on second thought, forget it. German accented Italian is fun enough. Real estate is important though. The ones who get to keep it generally are called "winners" in history. You get great funny hats too. Blue and it isn't even Advent? Where's that come from even in Advent? Oh yeah -- gonna have a blue, blue, blue-hoo-hoo Advent.Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-30196115959481158242007-09-11T03:15:00.000+10:002007-09-11T03:15:00.000+10:00Historians know why the church enacted the celibat...<I>Historians know why the church enacted the celibate rule about 1,000 AD. You guessed it - material reasons once again - property rights.</I><BR/><BR/>Not quite, BP.<BR/><BR/>In 385, Pope Siricius issued the first papal decree on the subject, saying that "clerical continence" was a tradition reaching as far back as apostolic times.<BR/><BR/>While later councils and popes would pass similar edicts, the definitive promulgation of the celibate, unmarried priesthood came at the Second Lateran Council in 1139 under Pope Gregory VII. Far from being a law forced upon the medieval priesthood, it was the acceptance of celibacy by priests centuries earlier that eventually led to its universal promulgation in the twelfth century.<BR/><BR/>In the Eastern churches bishops are always taken from the celibate monastic clergy and priests cannot marry after ordination or remarry upon the death of their wives. Married Eastern Orthodox priests are required to abstain from relations with their wives for a full day before celebrating the Divine Liturgy, with daily liturgies celebrated only in the monasteries or cathedrals.<BR/><BR/>I am a married Catholic who very much values the gifts of a celibate priesthood. By giving up earthly for spiritual fatherhood Catholic priests have been a blessing in so many ways. I have great respect for the fine pastors I knew in my Protestant upbringing but in so many ways they are "captive" to the desires of their congregations.<BR/><BR/>As far as the division between temporal andspiritual concerns , several parishes in the Episcopal Church in the U.S. are now fighting it out in the courts to retain their properties as they attempt to leave the ECUSA for Anglican oversight and this in a supposedly egalitarian church body.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-13452277440478045302007-09-10T11:57:00.000+10:002007-09-10T11:57:00.000+10:00An interesting thought, B.P., and one that occured...An interesting thought, B.P., and one that occured to me regularly when I entered the Catholic Church. As a Lutheran pastor, I was used to the division of labour in regard to my lay church council which went: Word and Sacraments (my job), money and property (your job).<BR/><BR/>However, I feel there is some need to understand the situation from the point of view of history--and possible future as well. There is some "power" involved (sadly) in ownership of property. If those with valid spiritual and pastoral did not hold the reigns of the money and the property as well, it is conceivable that the financial power could be used against the spiritual authorities (eg. holding them to ransom: we won't pay you if you don't teach as we say) to achieve the spiritual outcome desired by those who hold the financial pursestrings.Schützhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05026181010471282505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-6410410386016634842007-09-08T05:22:00.000+10:002007-09-08T05:22:00.000+10:00The pro-life morality and theology of God and the...The pro-life morality and theology of God and the sacraments is great in the Catholic Faith but the management of church material possessions leaves a lot to be desired and is very painful to watch. The main problem with the Catholic Church in the modern world is the way it orders people around and takes possession of people's money using a Middle Age culture and top down rule. Let the theology be top down but not the organization of material property. Bishops should stop being sole owners of all parish properties in their diocese. The parishioners should own and manage their church property. It's greed for earthly power over material possessions pure and simple. The Catholic theology and magisterium are fine but the implementation of christian prinicples of justice in material things is bad. The laity should handle the material side of the church and the hierarchy should stick to the spiritual side. Also, the church considers Jesus too liberal because He (God) chose 11 out of 12 married men as apostles. This attitude toward Jesus liberal views from the Pope and other church leaders is very offensive to modern day married Catholics. Historians know why the church enacted the celibate rule about 1,000 AD. You guessed it - material reasons once again - property rights. Thanks for reading my two cents! - B.P.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-69374347089628719022007-09-08T04:32:00.000+10:002007-09-08T04:32:00.000+10:00In a world in which, as Alvin Toffler [does anyone...<I>In a world in which, as Alvin Toffler <B>[does anyone remember Toffler? He's a bit outdated now for a futurist...]</B> still teaches us, change is the only constant,</I><BR/><BR/>Alvin Toffler ?? Excuse me while I run and fetch my flowers, incense and luv beads. Good grief!<BR/><BR/>Change in this world may be a constant for this poor confused cleric but fortunately Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever.<BR/><BR/>Psychology just won't cut it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-37638211538219347872007-09-07T11:09:00.000+10:002007-09-07T11:09:00.000+10:00Little's book was instrumental in my conversion to...Little's book was instrumental in my conversion to the Catholic Church--and for Peter Holmes too (http://cumgranosalis70.blogspot.com). She just nails it.<BR/><BR/>For some reason, the distinction between power and authority is difficult in today's culture. A certain auxiliary bishop who will be retiring in 66 days, 11 hours and 55 minutes (hat tip to http://coo-eesfromthecloister.blogspot.com) has often said to me that Jesus never talked about authority, only ever about service. I tell him to read his bible--starting with Matthew 28:18.<BR/><BR/>I tell my kids (and anyone else who will listen) that there are two terrible things in the world: people who claim authority they do not have (counterfeit authority), and people who have true authority but fail to use it for the purpose God intended (abusive authority).<BR/><BR/>But when God-given authority is used for the purpose God gave it, then our duty--in line with the 4th Commandment--is to submit ourselves to it and obey it.Schützhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05026181010471282505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-41683559218367627672007-09-07T05:52:00.000+10:002007-09-07T05:52:00.000+10:00I posted a quote here, by Joyce A. Little, an auth...I posted a quote <A HREF="http://www.randomjottings.net/archives/002651.html" REL="nofollow">here</A>, by Joyce A. Little, an author you might find interesting who has written about the difference between power and authority...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com