tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post4499703776715602594..comments2023-08-19T23:23:19.849+10:00Comments on Sentire cum Ecclesia: A Cardinal in the CarSchützhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05026181010471282505noreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-90387778886895845922007-08-06T13:37:00.000+10:002007-08-06T13:37:00.000+10:00Bless us and save us, Mrs O'Davis.You really have ...Bless us and save us, Mrs O'Davis.<BR/><BR/>You really have to watch your exact syntax around the Gospel according to Scheler types (I like that phrase, think I'll run with it for a while).<BR/><BR/>OK, I was using parallelism re Christine's comment. Bless us and save us, Mrs O'Davis. So I amend my bleeding self:<BR/>to limit the catholic church at present to the 22 rites currently under the bishop of Rome is really falling short of what the catholic church is, which statement will remain true at any time of any number of rites under the bishop of Rome, the issue being whether being under the bishop of Rome is a constituitive element in being fully church.<BR/><BR/>Romanism would apply to those who think it is, Roman rite or not.Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-47208847933977205872007-07-31T23:49:00.000+10:002007-07-31T23:49:00.000+10:00Insofar as we are speaking of the [C]atholic, not ...Insofar as we are speaking of the [C]atholic, not [c]atholic church, i.e., those churches in communion with the See of Peter, it is still not correct to limit the [C]atholic Church to that of the Church of Rome.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-75342778964944686402007-07-31T23:26:00.000+10:002007-07-31T23:26:00.000+10:00There is no question of "limiting" the Church to 2...There is no question of "limiting" the Church to 22 rites. That is a description of what it currently is. It could be more or less.Schützhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05026181010471282505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-38271140595682067002007-07-31T14:47:00.000+10:002007-07-31T14:47:00.000+10:00Regarding Romanism, to limit the catholic church t...Regarding Romanism, to limit the catholic church to the 22 rites under the bishop of Rome is really falling short if what the catholic church is.Past Elderhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10541968132598367551noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-24788349913271975822007-07-31T03:11:00.000+10:002007-07-31T03:11:00.000+10:00Regarding references to "Romanism." Since the Rom...Regarding references to "Romanism." Since the Roman Rite of the Catholic Church is only one of 22 Rites, all of which are in communion with the Holy See, to limit the Catholic Church to "Romanism" (which is, yes, the largest of the Rites) is really falling short of what the Catholic Church is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-68101478430819421042007-07-26T15:08:00.000+10:002007-07-26T15:08:00.000+10:00I understand perfectly that "at no point has Rome ...I understand perfectly that "at no point has Rome ever taught that justification is anyting other than by grace alone". I wouldn't have expected otherwise, Paul.<BR/><BR/>The important thing is that this fact is not well known or understood by Lutherans in general, where the popular line is that Catholics believe they are saved by their works rather than by the completely unmerited grace of God. <BR/><BR/>The reaffirmation of the central agreement that both Catholics and Lutherans affirm together that Justification is "By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part" (JDDJ) should cause us to ask ourselves whether we are in fact hearing eachother correctly when we debate "sola fide".<BR/><BR/>Added to this is the fact that both Catholics and Lutherans together condemn both Pelagianism and Semi-Pelagianism. <BR/><BR/>Questions that should be asked are:<BR/><BR/>1) When we say "faith", are we both using this word in the same way? [I would suggest not--and for this we would need to look hard at the different Lutheran and Catholic approaches to the relationship between faith on the one hand and love on the other]. <BR/><BR/>2) What is the relationship between justification and sanctification? [There is debate on this even in Lutheran circles]<BR/><BR/>3) If grace is supreme, and personal merit is completely discounted, what is the reason for the insistance on faith "alone" (which, at least in terms of the phrase itselve, is not "biblical" and actually at odds with at least the Letter of St James)? [I think there is a misunderstanding of the meaning of "alone"]<BR/><BR/>I pointed out the Cardinal that there were a good number of Lutherans in the world who did not accept the JDDJ, however, here in Australia the pastors of the Lutheran Church unanimously accepted it in good faith. It is not perfect as a final statement of agreement, and requires a good deal further work, but surely in the focus on the total and sole reliance upon the Grace of God for salvation, it clears the ground of mutual accusations of semi-pelagianism or antinomianism.<BR/><BR/>Just as the dialogue with Lutherans was an opportunity for the Catholics to take a good look at the way they (in practice, if not in theory) may have taught justification in terms approaching semi-pelagianism, Lutheranism also needs to examine what it does and does not mean by "faith alone".Schützhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05026181010471282505noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-35181280799651058982007-07-26T12:53:00.000+10:002007-07-26T12:53:00.000+10:00Dave, your comments about the JDDJ are proof posit...Dave, your comments about the JDDJ are proof positive that you never understood either Lutheranism's or Romanism's doctrine of justification.<BR/><BR/>At no point has Rome ever taught that justification is anything other than by "grace alone."<BR/><BR/>The issue is not "grace alone" but if it received by means of faith alone.<BR/><BR/>I suspect you know that, but you must ignore that point in order to reconcile your decision to abandon ship on the Biblical doctrine of justification.Rev. Paul T. McCainhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04846468267196335350noreply@blogger.com