tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post7628731619660644404..comments2023-08-19T23:23:19.849+10:00Comments on Sentire cum Ecclesia: Canonical Rulings on the Assumption and Liturgical Exegesis of
Revelation 12Schützhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05026181010471282505noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-40675745496542943132009-08-17T04:41:43.000+10:002009-08-17T04:41:43.000+10:00Two explanations I have heard about this passage:1...Two explanations I have heard about this passage:<br>1/ Refers to the Herodical massacre of the Children,with Satan of course influencing Herod THE "GREAT",and the woman being Mary.<br><br>2/ Richard Bewes,successor of John Stott at All Souls Church Langham Place,in his book THE LAMB WINS believes that the woman was originally israel ,but is now the Church (ie the people of God)Matthiasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-27869287339504802992009-08-17T05:46:47.000+10:002009-08-17T05:46:47.000+10:00As another aside, before Vatican II Cardinal Bea p...As another aside, before Vatican II Cardinal Bea prepared a somewhat augmented version of the Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary, which was prayed by very many congregations of religious women instead of the full Breviary (after the Council, they were encouraged to adopt the new Office or at least Lauds and Vespers - but, like priests, it seems that many fell away even from that), and for Christmastide, this was the third lesson at Matins:<br><br>Lectio III (Apoc. xii, 1. 5a)<br><br>Signum magnum apparuit in caelo: mulier amicta sole, et luna sub pedibus ejus, et in capite ejus corona stellarum duodecim. Et peperit filium masculum, qui recturus erat omnes gentes in virga ferrea.<br><br>In other words, this passage is easily read as a more theological account of the Nativity of Christ. Reading the rest of the verses reveals how Christ came into the world to overcome the Devil.Joshuahttp://psallitesapienter.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-56838547607142795192009-08-17T09:14:59.000+10:002009-08-17T09:14:59.000+10:00It is always a worry when people try to limit the ...It is always a worry when people try to limit the meaning of a symbol in scripture. It is clear that the woman in revelation references Mary and is indeed clear support for the traditional understanding of the assumption. It is also clear that this woman is the Church AND Israel. All of this and more. The book of revelation is mystical poetry but many people treat it like a code book. I think it is a pity that, since they do not use it in their liturgy, the Byzantines have never explored the link between this woman and Sophia. Hmmm...There could be a thesis in that.An Liaignoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-85260325985573030702009-08-17T09:29:35.000+10:002009-08-17T09:29:35.000+10:00That is interesting An liang seeing as Vladimir So...That is interesting An liang seeing as Vladimir Soloviev,attributed with being one of the founders of Russian Catholic church, and thus a Byzantine Catholic church ,had visions of Sophia ,in Moscow,in the British library and in the Egyptian desert.<br> The Book of revelation is mystical poetry but it is also prophetic. The trouble is that many have used it as an Old Moores Almanac. When the writer says "Then I saw heaven opened and behold a white horse and He Who sat upon it is called Faithful and True".Poetry,mystical but Porphetic as the Blessed writer was seeing Christ as Conquering King .Matthiasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-42491556771212849432009-08-17T17:18:48.000+10:002009-08-17T17:18:48.000+10:00Yeah, but she is Israel and the Church BECAUSE she...Yeah, but she is Israel and the Church BECAUSE she is Mary, the Mother of the Lord. That's the connection the protties fail to make.Schützhttp://www.scecclesia.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-43916561080478495362009-08-17T17:21:24.000+10:002009-08-17T17:21:24.000+10:00Interesting. Just goes to show that there is somet...Interesting. Just goes to show that there is something very deliberate about the choice of the two readings we have in today's lectionary. I rather suspect though that the opinion of the easterners and the traddies would be that we have mucked up on the "lex orandi" doctrine of the dormition/assumption by messing around with the lectionary for this feast.Schützhttp://www.scecclesia.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-12549846364597941922009-08-17T17:25:00.001+10:002009-08-17T17:25:00.001+10:00Well, now there is an interesting point that I hav...Well, now there is an interesting point that I have not previously been aware of. When you say they "do not use it in their liturgy", do you mean only the lectionary? Surely they have incorporated some of the hymnic passages into their liturgy, as indeed we have? And consider: if they do not use the Revelation in their liturgy, do they consider it truly canonical? (Is the omission a reflection of the suspicion that the Book received in early times?)Schützhttp://www.scecclesia.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-58561516161576052852009-08-17T17:28:39.000+10:002009-08-17T17:28:39.000+10:00Again, the case of the white rider is another case...Again, the case of the white rider is another case in point about many commentators wanting it to be "either/or". The question is: Is the white Rider Christ? This seems to be the case definitively in 19:11, since he is called "faithful and true", just as Jesus is in the first chapter. But is this the case in 6:2, where the white rider is the first horseman of the apocalypse? Many say not. Yet the similarity of vision is so strong...Schützhttp://www.scecclesia.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-4112902520177602922009-08-17T19:42:37.000+10:002009-08-17T19:42:37.000+10:00Louis Brighton's Revelation Commentary from CP...Louis Brighton's Revelation Commentary from CPH specifically identifies the woman as Mary. That Revelation states that Mary in soul and body has been taken to heaven, I still am not seeing. She is certainly the Ark; she is certainly the Woman (and so personifying both Israel and Church, she being the nexus of both). But the text says nothing about her being bodily raised into heaven following her death.Weedonhttp://weedon.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-54651517857972168082009-08-17T20:01:08.000+10:002009-08-17T20:01:08.000+10:00P.S. An interesting feature is, if Rome grants th...P.S. An interesting feature is, if Rome grants that this is Mary, how do you understand her crying out in labor and how does this fit with virgo in partu?Weedonhttp://weedon.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-17769391328476350532009-08-17T21:33:52.000+10:002009-08-17T21:33:52.000+10:00PW, She does cry out during the Passion...PW, She does cry out during the Passion...Kiranhttp://www.quotidianglosses.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-12419628996311645022009-08-17T23:40:49.000+10:002009-08-17T23:40:49.000+10:00P.S. Not that I am in the least disputing the pos...P.S. Not that I am in the least disputing the possibility that she may have been; I actually think it rather likely. But I see nothing in this passage or in any other place in Scripture that would warrant dogmatically asserting that it has happened and must be believed by all the faithful.Weedonhttp://weedon.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-8923711457272082272009-08-18T05:02:36.000+10:002009-08-18T05:02:36.000+10:00PW,SO nice to see you here again!Does your church ...PW,<br><br>SO nice to see you here again!<br><br>Does your church celebrate the 15th of August - as what, and with what readings?<br><br>Do tell somewhat of your beliefs on this matter.Joshuahttp://psallitesapienter.blogspot.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-87344992765343654972009-08-18T05:05:44.000+10:002009-08-18T05:05:44.000+10:00But Pastor! Where is it that John says he sees her...But Pastor! Where is it that John says he sees her?Schützhttp://www.scecclesia.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-89378697248960767772009-08-18T05:13:01.000+10:002009-08-18T05:13:01.000+10:00Ah! Clever, Pastor! Many images are being placed t...Ah! Clever, Pastor! Many images are being placed together here - and chronology is not what is important in the Revelation.<br><br>Let us say, "the Ark" is in heaven. Then the ark is identified with the woman who is described as standing and crowned.<br><br>Then the narrative of the action begins - a sort of introduction of the characters - a "story so far". The woman fleeing into the wilderness does not necessarily happen "after" the woman is crowned in heaven. The images, not the chronology, matters.<br><br>As for the "crying out", this need not be referring to the natural birth pangs of labour (we are clearly using mythic imagery here), but the crying out of anticipation!Schützhttp://www.scecclesia.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-88942539236540601672009-08-18T09:25:30.000+10:002009-08-18T09:25:30.000+10:00There is no dispute that she is in heaven; but the...There is no dispute that she is in heaven; but the question is is she body and soul in heaven? Obviously God does that. Enoch, Elijah. No reason to deny that He could very well have done that for his Mother as well. But the Scriptures do not clearly state that He has done so in her case; nor, as you point out, is the chronology clear from our standpoint in Revelation.Weedonhttp://weedon.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-63304632219347636172009-08-18T09:28:39.000+10:002009-08-18T09:28:39.000+10:00Indeed, and the birth pangs may have reference to ...Indeed, and the birth pangs may have reference to that. Also the creation groans in labor until now as the new creation is being given birth.Weedonhttp://weedon.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-88054085036800140672009-08-18T10:38:23.000+10:002009-08-18T10:38:23.000+10:00Pastor, it seems that this points also to the fact...Pastor, it seems that this points also to the fact that Mary is Mother of the Church. It is not just Jesus that she is giving birth to in that passage of the Revelations. What say you?Kirannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-53929208272323092382009-08-18T11:03:47.000+10:002009-08-18T11:03:47.000+10:00I'd agree; though perhaps I'd phrase it mo...I'd agree; though perhaps I'd phrase it more like this:<br><br>In Revelation 12 we encounter Israel/Mary/Church and see that the Mother of God is the nexus between the old and new people of God. She literally IS old Israel giving birth to new Israel. Blessed Johann Gerhard, whose day we commemorate today in our Synod, used to say that Mary is a type of the Church in that she sustains the three relationships of Mother, Bride, and Virgin simultaneously.Weedonhttp://weedon.blogspot.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-54359670553625510502009-08-18T21:30:47.000+10:002009-08-18T21:30:47.000+10:00Righto. I agree with this. It follows from the fac...Righto. I agree with this. It follows from the fact that the Scriptures are a liturgical book. The Bible had its origin - as a collection - in the liturgy (both Jewish and Christian).<br><br>I would add that Pastor W asks where the teaching of the Assumption is "clearly" taught in scripture (a question which implies the assumptions of sola scriptura and the perspicuity of scripture). In fact, if the scriptures are foremost a liturgical book, then we should expect to find the "content of the deposit of faith" celebrated and reflected in, rather than established in, the Scriptures.Schützhttp://www.scecclesia.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-21487528.post-9478902858487448622009-08-19T00:31:09.000+10:002009-08-19T00:31:09.000+10:00David,I meant that the Byzantine Church does not u...David,<br><br>I meant that the Byzantine Church does not use the book of Revelation in their lectionary. Since their church has avery strong liturgical emphasis, this means that many of their priest's are not familiar with it. Yoy are right in suggesting that it has inspired various Troparia and other hymns - but then so has the Proto-evangelion of James. I do think there is a traditional suspicion of this book in the Byzantine Tradition but you really need someone from that tradition to confirm that. I will talk to our mutual friend and get back to you.An Liaignoreply@blogger.com