Thursday, August 02, 2007

Maybe I jumped the wrong way...

I've got to stop doing these silly quizes that one picks up from here and there. This one "What's your theological worldview?" I got from Per Christum.

Any way, here's my result:
You scored as a Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan
You are an evangelical in the Wesleyan tradition. You believe that God's grace enables you to choose to believe in him, even though you yourself are totally depraved. The gift of the Holy Spirit gives you assurance of your salvation, and he also enables you to live the life of obedience to which God has called us. You are influenced heavly by John Wesley and the Methodists.
Well, no, I don't believe all those things at all, which probably shows that tests like these don't do "nuance" very well. Here's the breakdown of my result:
Neo orthodox 93%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 93%
Roman Catholic 86%
Emergent/Postmodern 54%
Classical Liberal 29%
Charismatic/Pentecostal 25%
Fundamentalist 25%
Reformed Evangelical 21%
Modern Liberal 18%
The only thing it got right was putting "Modern Liberal" at the very bottom.

20 Comments:

At Thursday, August 02, 2007 12:00:00 pm , Anonymous Tony Bartel said...

My result was:

"You scored as a Roman Catholic."

Mmmm.

However, I would note that the description of a Roman Catholic would be equally true of an Anglo-Catholic or an Orthodox Christian.

"You are Roman Catholic. Church tradition and ecclesial authority are hugely important, and the most important part of worship for you is mass. As the Mother of God, Mary is important in your theology, and as the communion of saints includes the living and the dead, you can also ask the saints to intercede for you.
Roman Catholic"

I am so glad I have been given permission to ask the saints to intercede for me.

 
At Thursday, August 02, 2007 4:02:00 pm , Blogger Past Elder said...

Bless us and save us Mrs O'Davis!

I have scored the same as you Bruder Schuetz -- wir sind Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan! What does this mean? What does this mean?

My breakdown is different than yours, however, alike in that we both came in with Modern Liberal as dead last. What does this mean?

Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan 82%
Neo orthodox 79%
Roman Catholic 71%
Fundamentalist 71%
Reformed Evangelical 57%
Emergent/Postmodern 36%
Charismatic/Pentecostal 29%
Classical Liberal 25%
Modern Liberal 11%

I think I got it -- after the first three, on which we are similar, you come out as an emergent/postmodern and I as a fundamentalist. That's it! A novus ordo phenomenology of man conciliar type as opposed to a would be SSPXer if I didn't know that the Confessions are a true and accurate statement of Scripture and were still lost in the maze called "Catholicism".

Still I can't believe we both came out Wesleyan neo orthodox Catholics. Judas H Priest

 
At Friday, August 03, 2007 12:33:00 am , Anonymous Christine said...

Oh gosh that was fun. My results:

You scored as a Roman Catholic
You are Roman Catholic. Church tradition and ecclesial authority are hugely important, and the most important part of worship for you is mass. As the Mother of God, Mary is important in your theology, and as the communion of saints includes the living and the dead, you can also ask the saints to intercede for you.

Roman Catholic 100%
Evangelical Holiness/
Wesleyan 86%
Neo orthodox 71%
Reformed Evangelical 29%
Emergent/Postmodern 29%
Modern Liberal 14%
Fundamentalist 14%
Charismatic/Pentecostal 0%
Classical Liberal 0%


I must say I am flummoxed by the Emergent/Postmodern/Fundamentalist/Modern Liberal scores but not at all surprised by the lack of Pentecostal/Classical Liberal scores. That's about right.

And I, too, am grateful to have received permission to ask the saints to intercede for me.

Heh.

 
At Friday, August 03, 2007 12:36:00 am , Anonymous Christine said...

And if Past Elder labels me as A novus ordo phenomenology of man conciliar type as opposed to a would be SSPXer I am going to assail him with a hardback copy of Luther's Tischreden !!

 
At Friday, August 03, 2007 2:40:00 am , Blogger eulogos said...

Here is how I scored. Some of the statements are so ambiguous and beg for clarification, but you can usually see what they are trying to get at.

You are Roman Catholic. Church tradition and ecclesial authority are hugely important, and the most important part of worship for you is mass. As the Mother of God, Mary is important in your theology, and as the communion of saints includes the living and the dead, you can also ask the saints to intercede for you.
Roman Catholic

96%
Neo orthodox

86%
Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan

75%
Reformed Evangelical

39%
Emergent/Postmodern

36%
Classical Liberal

29%
Fundamentalist

25%
Charismatic/Pentecostal

25%
Modern Liberal

0%

Susan Peterson

 
At Friday, August 03, 2007 2:42:00 am , Blogger eulogos said...

Now why is Christine 100%RC and I am only 96%?
SFP

 
At Friday, August 03, 2007 3:20:00 am , Anonymous Christine said...

Now why is Christine 100%RC and I am only 96%?
SFP


Well -- obviously my keyboard is more Catholic than yours !

:)

 
At Sunday, August 05, 2007 2:16:00 am , Blogger Past Elder said...

Well Christine, I think this is significant somehow --

You, I and our host all had a cluster of Neo-orthodox, Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan and Roman Catholic at the top. I note, BTW, Lutheran was not an option. Now, in your case, everything else was a distant also-ran, but for unser Bruder Schuetz Emergent/Postmodern was a middle ground then came the also-rans, and for me Fundamentalist was right up there at 71% with Roman Catholic putting it in with the three categories we all share.

So you miss getting labelled as a Gospel according to Max Scheler type, though you seem to listen to them when they turn up in mitres and crosiers!

 
At Monday, August 06, 2007 12:57:00 pm , Anonymous Lucian, the little sadist said...

I've got nothing important to say, really ... just glad though, in my own twisted and perverted manner, that I see Herr Schuetz over here, and most of his commenters on this post being labeled as Neo-Orthodox.

 
At Monday, August 06, 2007 11:33:00 pm , Anonymous Christine said...

Ah, Max Scheler, Edmund Husserl and the phenonomenologists. Ironically, it was this bunch that so highly influenced Edith Stein to become Catholic and that was long before Vatican II.

I love miters and croziers. I wish I had a crozier when people annoy me. It would really come in handy !! (And of course they would be welcome to use it when I in turn annoy them !!)

 
At Tuesday, August 07, 2007 1:42:00 pm , Blogger Past Elder said...

In part continuing from the I'm Still Here conversation:

The sedevacantists do not deny the papacy, they deny that there is a valid occupant of that office right now -- an inter-regnum. Considering the manifest apostacy of particularly Paul VI and JPII that is understandable, though I would not agree with it. But they do not deny the papacy.

The SSPX recognises BXVI as pope. They teach precisely and exactly what the Catholic Church taught me as Catholicism. So if someone claims to be the Catholic Church but teaches another Catholicism, let him be anathema. The schism is on the part of those who departed the Catholic faith for something else, then said it was the same thing because they were saying it. The Roman Catholic faith, IMHO, is a false church twice over: it does not teach Catholicism, which is a conclusion I reached as a Catholic, and what it does teach is not the faith of Christ though there is some overlap, which is a conclusion I reached and became Lutheran.

You're entirely right about what has happened in Protestantism. Wonder where they got the idea? It's no accident that all these churches, to the extent they have a liturgical tradition, have followed the lead of the mother of all false churches and adapted the novus ordo for use. If I have not been clear enough, those wannabe bodies are part of the Whore of Babylon too, including those with the word Lutheran in their names.

In view of this, there can be nothing other than the supposed authority of the Roman church attracting converts from this mess infecting nearly all churches including Rome, because at least there one can point to a supposed bulwark that will endure. I would submit there is a bulwark that will endure, and it has nothing to do with a bishop, Rome, or a bishop of Rome.

When the current ordinary liturgy of the Roman rite is observed with fidelity and reverence, you have the grossest revisionist parody of what once was the only liturgy of the Roman rite. This Sunday, one son was at a sleepover and the other was sleeping in -- Sunday AM TV is amazing, full of wordly get-ahead motivational stuff and "Christian" preachers operating in about the same format, and then regular televised church services too operating in about their same format. I watched EWTN for about as long as I could stand to without wishing I could change channel and watch the real thing rather than this pious fraud.

I don't think Bergman accepted existentialism and thus rejected his faith. Certainly the million dollar lawsuits all around re Roman clergy and children would indicate sick behaviour toward children is not exclusively a Lutheran clerical phenomenon.

As to mitres and crosiers, I wonder what St Peter would have thought if he saw a figure so attired -- probably wonder what in the hell kind of cult this clown comes from! Some authentic Lutheran bodies use them along with the title bishop, some don't (including us), but in either case this is not the essence of continuity.

 
At Wednesday, August 08, 2007 12:03:00 am , Anonymous Christine said...

The sedevacantists do not deny the papacy, they deny that there is a valid occupant of that office right now -- an inter-regnum.

Absolutely right, I neglected to flesh that out. Sedevacantist ("while the seat is empty"). If I recall correctly they consider Pius XII to be the last legitimate Pope. But by denying the legitimacy of the current Pope they still nevertheless come up as pseudocatholics.

As far as the mainstream Protestant world's shift to the left, blaming that on the Catholic Church is absurd. The novus ordo has nothing to do with the fact that these bodies began to change their teachings on marriage, life issues, etc. in direct opposition to the historic teachings of Catholicism on these issues. I grew up in that Protestant world while you were still Catholic and saw the shift begin. Watch the next march for abortion rights as the Episcopal "priestesses" walk right alongside NARAL and their ilk.

I participated in one of the largest RCIA classes in the parish where I was received into the Church. When individuals were asked what attracted them to the Catholic Church over and over again they said, the liturgy, the deeper sense of being a part of the Communion of Saints, Catholic devotional life and the sense of being part of a worldwide community of faith, the teachings of the church on the sanctity of life, the exemplary witness of Catholics such as Mother Teresa and Maximilian Kolbe, etc. They simply aren't railing about the issues you keep rehashing. You can tell yourself it was the strictly the "authority" issue if you want to but there's far more to it than that. They simply didn't find the kind of sacramental life in their former church bodies that they found in the Catholic Church.

Mitres, croziers -- high church Lutherans and Anglicans as well as Catholics (I know about such things, I grew up Lutheran, remember?). You might also want to disparage the Orthodox on this matter, some of their vestments put eve Catholics to shame.

Oh, and, if it irritates you so much why the blue blazes do you keep watching EWTN?

 
At Wednesday, August 08, 2007 12:38:00 am , Anonymous Christine said...

Certainly the million dollar lawsuits all around re Roman clergy and children would indicate sick behaviour toward children is not exclusively a Lutheran clerical phenomenon.

You're right about that! This week's news reported the sentencing of a married Baptist minister who raped two underage girls, one of whom was deaf.

Seems to be a very ecumenical phenomenon.

 
At Wednesday, August 08, 2007 2:43:00 pm , Blogger Past Elder said...

In reverse order:

I don't "keep" watching EWTN. I used to watch it during the wretched periods when I was would still try to convince myself that the post conciliar church was in any sense Catholic but the name on the marquee. I haven't watched it in years. I did last Sunday morning because I had the unusual event of channel surfing on Sunday morning and there they were.

I'm not against mitres and crosiers, just against regarding them as anything essential.

I saw the shift begin in the Protestant world too -- all the Vatican II types were watching and rooting for it, and now they've all got a novus ordo worship format. As I say, Whore of Babylon isn't just the Roman Catholic church.

In one of the conversions I regretably had a role in, I had the opportunity to see the RCIA in action. Whatever it initiates one into, it was nothing identifiable as Catholicism to me, and everything like another Protestant church except with a pope (as my dad used to say, who did grow up Protestant).

I notice you didn't mention anyone saying they were there because they have come to see this as the true and full faith of Jesus Christ. There's pro life atheists, and lots of political conservatives with no religious beliefs, and anyone can buy vestments and funny hats.

As to the sedevacantists, they're only pseudocatholics if they're wrong. If they're right and the chair of Peter is vacant, then they're the only ones left. The question is, are they right or are they wrong, and the answer is not they are wrong because they must be wrong.

It's all about authority. You can find any of the other elements in many places. Actually, one of the reasons I am not in the "Catholic Church" is because I find in it nothing like the sacramental life in my former church body, the Catholic Church. Not even close.

 
At Wednesday, August 08, 2007 11:23:00 pm , Anonymous Christine said...

I notice you didn't mention anyone saying they were there because they have come to see this as the true and full faith of Jesus Christ. There's pro life atheists, and lots of political conservatives with no religious beliefs, and anyone can buy vestments and funny hats.

That's a judgment you can't make. You weren't there. At RCIA I met Christians from many denominational backgrounds, with a fervent love for Christ and strong habits of Scripture reading who had been active and devoted members of their congregations. In fact, two of my fellow members from the Lutheran congregation I left eventually came into the Church through the same RCIA program at the same parish I attended. We were fortunate to have wonderful mentors at that parish.

Again, all these folks became Catholic precisely because they did NOT find "all those other elements" in their former denominations.

I am not in the "Catholic Church" is because I find in it nothing like the sacramental life in my former church body, the Catholic Church. Not even close.

Ah, and here I have a referent that goes far and beyond what you post, Past Elder. My father was the only boy in a family of five children. When I say his mother (born and raised well before the era of Vatican II), my grandmother, was "more Catholic than the Pope" I am not exaggerating. Educated by nuns, she would not only have agreed with everything you post but I don't doubt the SSPX would have seemed liberal in her eyes.

The woman is now long gone from this world so I don't want to speak ill of the dead, but suffice it to say that two of her daughters no longer attend church of any kind. They would have welcomed the post-Vatican II church with open arms.

By the way, most Protestants have always had a "novus ordo" form of worship since they adopted the vernacular at the Reformation, long before the Catholic Church did and since they kicked out all but two of the sacraments recognized by Catholics and the Orthodox.

I've heard that Dr. Samuel Nafzger of the Worship and heology Commission at the LCMS has come on board with the Ablaze thing. I still remember from years ago some very fruitful correspondence I shared with him and then LCMS President Ralph Bohlmann. There wasn't even a hint of cryptofundamentalism in those days.

Like I said, it ain't the Missouri Synod I grew up in.

 
At Thursday, August 09, 2007 2:11:00 pm , Blogger Past Elder said...

I didn't say I was there, I said you did not state that any of them became Catholic because they came to see Catholicism as the true and full faith of Jesus Christ. You still haven't. It's not a matter of loving Christ or reading Scripture or being involved in one's church. Lots of heretics do that. Which is not to say they're heretics either, it's to say it's a question of what is the true and full faith of Jesus Christ.

The novus ordo isn't about the vernacular. The novus ordo is as heterodox in Latin as in translation. It's the rite, not the language.

 
At Thursday, August 09, 2007 11:56:00 pm , Anonymous Christine said...

Mein Himmel !! :)

Yes, we did (and I include myself) in our classes share that we saw the Catholic Church as possessing the fullness of faith. The former Lutherans and Episcopalians, especially, maintained this view. For others from less liturgical backgrounds they became interested in Catholicism either through the witness of Catholic family/friends or personal study. All began to question the former "solas" they once held in light of the sacramental life of the Church and how that pertained to their understanding of Jesus Christ. All wanted the fullness of that encounter, not having been satisfied with their former traditions which were rooted in words, words, words. The joy I saw on the faces of those who received their first Eucharist as Catholics was beautiful to see.

By the way, you bypassed my other statement. I said that adopting the vernacular was something that the churches of the Reformation did long before the Catholic Church as well as kicking out all but two of the sacraments and here, of course, I am speaking of the more liturgical bodies. The radical Reformation went even further and eliminated any sacramental notion of the Church altogether.

But you still want me to believe that the Catholic novus ordo is heterodox.

Heretics? Unbelievers? Doubters?I don't spend my time figuring out the motives of the people I worship with. In every single ecclesiastical tradition there will be wheat and tares until the end of time.

Es ist genug.

 
At Friday, August 10, 2007 2:08:00 pm , Blogger Past Elder said...

I did bypass your other statement. That was so as not to address the issue right then that the Reformation didn't kick out any sacraments, it returned the church to the right observance of the ones Christ insitituted and to the right observance of things made into sacraments by the later church. In this regard I am sure you recall Lutheranism is as opposed to the Reformed or Baptist position as to Rome's.

As to one's "first Communion", I certainly remember mine. I also remember the ones at the two RCIA receptions in which I most regrettably had a part, being years away from being Lutheran then. The RCIA having taught and the bogus, er, novus ordo having celebrated something unidentifiable as Catholicism and existing by way of suppression of it, I did not take Communion as Catholics do not commune at non Catholic services.

 
At Friday, August 10, 2007 11:08:00 pm , Anonymous Christine said...

it returned the church to the right observance of the ones Christ insitituted and to the right observance of things made into sacraments by the later church. In this regard I am sure you recall Lutheranism is as opposed to the Reformed or Baptist position as to Rome's.

Orthodox and Catholic Christians are just gonna hafta disagree with ya on that one.

I'll say this for you, Past Elder. You've made the transition well from Catholic to Protestant (yes, I use the term intentionally).

Hey, by the way, I was researching some of the works of the late and great Luther scholar Jaroslav Pelikan and came upon some biographical information. It was said of Pelikan:

A committed Lutheran for many years, while "proud to be an adopted son" of the Benedictine Abbey at Collegeville, Minnesota ...

Is that a kicker, or what? One of the greatest Lutheran scholars in the West an adopted son of the Benedictine Abtei at Collegeville !!

Saints preserve us !!

 
At Saturday, August 11, 2007 3:57:00 pm , Blogger Past Elder said...

Pelikan had a long relationship with St John's. He was a longtime and close friend of one of the Abbey's leading lights, Fr Godfrey (Diekmann), a liturgical activist in on the preparation of the novus ordo, the ICEL (which one priest, a German Jewish convert, once said to me really stood for International Conspiracy Against English in the Liturgy!), a peritus at the Council, a close family friend of some liberal Catholics with whom I grew up and still communicate with, and with whom I had some, shall we say, interesting conversations in my college days. Pelikan was also a charter Board member of St John's Institute for Ecumenical and Cultural Research -- which, if you need evidence that what you call the "silly season" is far from winding down, you can click on their site for some of the latest -- and his Jesus Through the Centuries was dedicated to the monks of die Abtei. In 1966, two years before I went there, he was awarded the Pax Christi, St John's highest honour, in recognition of demonstrating the Benedictine ideal. (Two years earlier it had been awarded to the then darling of the American left, Eugene McCarthy, an alumnus, with whom I also had some conversations and to this day retain an inscribed copy of his A Liberal Answer to the Conservative Challenge or some such thing among my memorabilia.)

Kind of speaks for itself.

If memory serves, he swam the Bosphorus, not the Tiber.

Just got my invitation to my 35th class reunion, which will also be the 150th year of the Abbey. Looked through all the material, could not find the name of Jesus Christ.

That kind of speaks for itself too.

If there's a transition, I'd say it's from Catholic to catholic -- twice over, from as a Catholic bailing out of the monstrous parody of Catholicism fashioned around in my view, and from both real Catholicism and its conciliar parody to catholicism, if you will, shall we say, a returning to it, peeling back the layers of my own belief to reveal the catholic faith that was always there.

 

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